One of our regular contributors who has connections to Honda has offered the following additional info/corrections on what Honda is supposedly planning for the rumoured new 2G S2000. He gave the following points:
- It will be a (USD)$40-45k non-hybrid
- To be equipped with the (new) CTR power-train and a 6-sp manual gearbox. Power is given as 300-350hp, up from the 280ps listed in BEST CAR. The car will be RWD.
- The new S2000 will now be 2+2 (a transverse engine configuration and using a I4 leaves room for a rear jumper seat)
- There is talk of a possible Hybrid model which will have 400hp (!) with a DCT gearbox and with AWD instead of RWD. The price of this is supposedly around the USD $60k range.
According to our contributor, Honda CEO Ito-san thinks sports cars should be MR and not FR.
Rumours of Honda resurrecting the legendary S2000 with a 2nd Gen S2000 is becoming very hot nowadays. From Japan, BEST CAR magazine has publishing lots of articles on this rumoured new model. TOV/TOVA contributor DanielG translated the following details from the latest BEST CAR issue :
- a midsize MR (2+2 possible) choice between the Beat (S660) and the NSX (instead of the previously rumored FR setup with a smaller engine), - powered by the EuroCTR 2.0L Turbo, SH-AWD being a possibility not yet decided. - priced between 4M and 4.5M JPY - arriving in second half 2016.
Dimensions are forecasted to be 4250mm X 1800mm X 1200 mm (LWH) with a wheelbase of 2700mm. The engine is taken from the Euro CTR as indicated above, with an estimated specs of 280ps at 6600rpm and 40.7kgm at 2500rpm.
BEST CAR has been quite OK with predicting new models but not with their technical details so take this with a pinch of salt and hope for the best.
Matsumoto-san Report from the ground
Preview AUTOPOLIS at the foot of Mount Aso at about 900m above sea level, the highest among all circuits in Japan.
As you know aero (body panel) packages and suspensions are heavily regulated so they can't be changed during the season. Engine development is still allowed but 3 engines per car, per season are allowed, so we'd have to wait 3 races before we could put in the new engine with the new developed parts.
How about the Hybrid, you ask?
Hybrid system is highly regulated, too. Any changes to the hybrid outputs or the power band are not allowed although it could only shorten the time comma 2 or 3 (i.e. 0.2 or 0.3, not sure what Matsumoto is referring to here) so it wouldn't really change anything today.
Only thing left there to do is the car settings. It is clear now that our current challenge is the car settings. Hopefully we'll do better jobs this time though we won't be challenging the top.
We're anticipating #18 Weilder Modulo with Michelin's would perform better at Autopolis considering the results after the tire tests.
We're doing the best we can as always. We appreciate your unconditional supports. We thank you very much.
Translation (very much appreciated) provided by TOVA reader 'CR-V9'
Honda publishes regular reports about their Super GT races on their main website at www.honda.co.jp in Japan. Unfortunately those reports are written in japanese. Nevertheless, one of TOVA's long-time support who goes by the nick of 'CR-V9', have been regularly posting his english translations of those reports here on 'TOVA Honda Fan' but on the feedback/comment sections of our regular articles.
The recent Super GT Fuji race ended in very heavy tears for Honda. All but one of the NSX'es retired from the race. The last one ended 15 laps behind the eventual winner (Impul R35). How can that happen?
As usual, CR-V9's provided a translation of Matsumoto-san's post-race report, in the feedback/comments section of our 10G CTR Geneva article. However, this time I felt it is too important to lament there so I have elevated it to a full blown article on Honda Fan. CR-V's translation below will serve to answer the many questions and concerns Honda and Super GT fans have. Sentences in italics are CR-V9's own thoughts.
Matsumoto Report from the ground : post-Fuji Speedway.
(This is hard. This is very hard for me. Matsumoto-san poured his soul out.)
The race ended in a blunt total unconditional defeat (!). Our 5 NSX Concept-GTs had qualified in 11th to 15th out of the 15 GT500 cars, and in the race 4 out of 5 retired, the last one finished the race but 15 laps behind. There is no excuse. None. There can't be any excuse. We did everything we could to prepare not to end up like this but to no avail in the end. It ended up in a regrettable result. There is nothing but to apologise to our fans who had expected us do better. I am sorry from the bottom of my heart.
There are a couple of reasons for our most devastating defeat. First, the 70kg weight handicap for the MR and hybrid cars because it was discussed (or negotiated or consulted) that a MR and a hybrid are considered advantageous in the race.
However, it has turned out to be very challenging to get the 100% out of the regulated common monocoque chassis which is originally designed for FR cars. Also it is in accordance with DTM regulations and that makes the car with more downforce than we need, thus tend to make the cars perform better at the corners. Then again, the 70kg extra weight makes it harder at the corner (exit speed) as you can imagine.
Having said so, the weight handicap was negotiated upon so it's not fair to complain now. I just wanted to explain that it is one of the reasons why we're struggling with now. (not an excuse) Anyhow we are doing our best to overcome the challenges.
Another challenge is car settings in weight balance, suspension, etc. We haven't learned quite worked it out yet.
We didn't even participated in the testing at Sepang in Malaysia. We were busy finalizing the design and basic layout of the car until the last minute because we realized the new regulation wouldn't allow any changes to the basic of the cars once it's done. But at the end we didn't have enough time to work out the car settings on the ground.
Another problem is overheating. The engine is sitting right behind the driver compartment. There is no room in between in this FR designed monocoque chassis. We could make the air-intake opening bigger if it's a commercial car to ensure enough cooling but in racing cars, the bigger the openings the bigger the air drags. So we'd want them as small as possible. And there the placements of radiator or intercooler are also regulated so we can't just do so much what we want.
At the Fuji speeday, the engine room got overheated and the overheat-safety program (system) kicked in to shut the throttle system down. That was why the NSX GT that stopped by the side, after cooling down was able to be driven back the pit once the safety system was resetted. This happened to all the 4 cars that retired.
(If someone from Honda racing is reading ... The air coming from the front of the car is routed out to the sides. Is it possible to reroute some of that air into the engine room? Maybe lowers the down force a bit, too? Just a thought)
I'm repeating again but I'm feeling full with regrets not be able to respond to our royal fans who have been supporting us all along. I am sorry from the bottom of my heart.
Anyhow, drastic changes can not be done right now because of the new regulations. For now, we only can work our magic on car settings to better our cars' performances in coming races.
We still continue keep doing our best to develop further and we truly appreciate your royal, uncompromising supports, from the bottom of our hearts.
The japanese newspaper Hokkaido Shinbun (Hokkaido News) reported a car crash at Honda's Takasu proving grounds at around 11am on May 13th. The car under test went off the track on a left hander and crashed into the woods besides the track. Report says that two persons in their forties were hurt with the passenger admitted to nearby hospital in Asahikawa city. Also stated is that there were around 60 persons at the track at that time.
While no official release was made by Honda, initial speculation is that this is Honda's new 2G NSX that crashed into the woods. The aerial photo published by Hokkaido Shinbun which is reproduced on the left shows a car with an exterior design that suggests this is so.
Our (TOV/TOVA) resident insider also confirms this on our forums, with additional info that the testers, both of whom were powertrain engineers are ok. The passenger experienced pain on his side after the crash so he was admitted to ER for X-Rays.
Honda Malaysia officially confirmed the cancellation of plans to market the Honda Brio K-car in Malaysia. This was made in a response to a question about this matter made by me during the press conference of the 4G Honda City launch.
There was no direct reason given for the cancellation but rather a reference was made to the fact that Malaysian national car makers Perodua and Proton both have offerings in this sector.
Further explanations also highlighted the potential for large sales figures of 100,000 or more units if the Brio is to be sold in Malaysia and while this should logically be good news for Honda Malaysia's ambitious 70,000+ quota for this year, a concern was also voiced about Honda's current (in)ability to provide satisfactory after sales support for such a large number.
So for Honda fans looking forward to this car in Malaysia will unfortunately be disappointed. No comments were made if this cancellation is for good or whether Honda will re-look into this matter again in the future.
One of the most significant change in the new 4G Honda City is the change of the gearbox from the 5AT back to the CVT gearbox that was first used in the 2G City. Unfortunately, seasoned Honda fans will remember well that this rather 'infamous' gearbox has a rather bad reputation for unreliability. Whether this reputation is rightfully or wrongfully given, it cannot be denied that a search on the internet will reveal numerous stories of 'start-up clutch' (its actually called the 'start clutch' but mechanics at Honda's authorized service and repair centers added the 'up' and many have called it 'start UP clutch' since) failures with early batches of the 2G City and even 1G Jazz.
The 'Start (up) Clutch
Honda's 'start clutch' is actually a viscous coupling clutch pack that operates via hydraulic pressure compressing several clutch plates together to transfer drive from the engine to the front wheels. Honda actually has a patent on the use of a viscous coupling clutch on their CVT gearbox, which they called Multimatic, back when it was launched in the mid-1990s on the EK3 Civic.
With the early batches of 2G City and 1G Jazz, 'start clutch' failures usually started with noisy 'juddering' when moving the car off from stationary, being due to the slippage of the clutch plates due to wear and tear from friction during usage. Eventually the 'start clutch' will slip more and more finally and in extreme cases, it will fail to move off from stationary because the clutch plates cannot engage, a condition much like having a worn clutch on a manual gearbox. Other symptoms included very bad fuel economy due to inefficient transfer of drive to the front wheels.
What I understood back then, was that the original 2G City had a different gearbox oil in their CVT-7 gearboxes than was originally recommended by Honda R&D in Japan. Instead of using CVT-F oil, it seems that early batches of City's had ATF-Z1 in their CVT gearboxes instead. While Honda originally certified ATF-Z1 to be suitable for use in their CVT gearboxes, eventually after rumours of 'start clutch' failures became rampant, they switched to the special CVT-F oil.
I also once had a discussion with an LPL from Honda R&D in Tochigi about this and he too assured me that if CVT-F oil is used, the start clutch should not fail. He also strongly recommended a strict 20,000-25,000 oil change interval to fully ensure longevity of the CVT gearbox.
Other less common failures reported of the original CVT gearbox was of 'internal leaks', where leakage of the hydraulic fluids inside the gearbox caused a failure to hold the 'V pulleys' properly locked in position during drive. When this happens, the two V pulleys which holds the metal CVT belt starts to change ratio uncontrollably and the result is an unstable fluctuating rpm during drive. The CVT-7 gearbox in my own Jazz 1.5VTEC had this failure and I was lucky to get a new gearbox replaced under warranty.
The new CVT gearbox
Given its rather 'unfortunate' history, it is understandable that as the new 4G City comes with the CVT gearbox, Honda fans might start bringing up the start clutch problem again or potential buyers will be told by friends of this. I am not sure whether any other publication actually touched on this in this level of detail, but certainly when I learned of the CVT gearbox's return in the 4G City, I was very concerned.
Therefore during the press conference for the launch of the 4G City, I departed from my usual restrain (of holding back my questions) and decided to tackle this issue head-on. I asked a very direct question 'head on' to the City LPL about this issue. And I video'ed his response at the press conference for you to listen for yourself. The youtube video is below.
Notes from the City LPL response
Key point to note from the LPL's response is the confirmation that the CVT gearbox used on this new 4G City now employs the standard torque converter which replaces the 'start clutch'. The 'start clutch' was originally located at the end of the gearbox, where the final drive is located. But here, the torque converter is placed at the usual location, just after the flywheel and operates like a regular torque converter (photo on the left). There is no 'start clutch' in this CVT gearbox. So, the message from the LPL is crystal clear - as there is no 'start clutch' so 'start clutch' failures will never happen with this new CVT gearbox.
The other key point is that the CVT gearbox has redesigned internals and along with the use of newer low-friction CVT gear oil, internal oil leaks like what happened with my Jazz 1.5 VTEC is also not likely to happen anymore.
I guess in the end, the most significant thing is that upon my proding him, the LPL confirms that Honda is very confident that the unreliability issues that affected early batches of the CVT gearbox in the original 2G City (and 1G Jazz) have been resolved.
So if you are considering the 4G City but have been having people telling you 'stories' about Honda's CVT 'start clutch' failures, rest assured that those are things of the past. They most definitely do not apply to the CVT gearbox in the new 4G City because it is of a different design/construction.
The new 4G City really is a great package and is the best equipped car in its market segment at the moment and likely for some time to come. TOVA gives it a strongly recommended buy if you are in the market for a 4-door sedan from this segment.
